The CX Conundrum of Changing Minds
Release Date:
It’s not easy changing people’s minds. But we’re approaching a season in which customer experience professionals are working hard to convince executives and peers on the value of adopting a customer-centric mindset. WE as CX pros know the value of our efforts, but sometimes we have to convince others of its advantages. And sometimes data isn’t enough. We have to balance the data with storytelling to build confidence in others about the value of customer experience. Troy Powell hosts with guests Pat Gibbons, SVP at Walker, and Megan Burns, a customer experience expert, author, and keynote speaker.
Megan Burns
Experience Enterprises
Connect with Megan
Pat Gibbons
Walker
Connect with Pat
In this episode:
- Chapter 1: Introduction (00:01 – 01:59)
- Chapter 2: Guest Experts Introduction and Initial Thoughts (01:59 – 03:23)
- Chapter 3: The Role of Data and Storytelling in Persuasion (03:23 – 05:39)
- Chapter 4: Challenges in Presenting Data and Stories (05:39 – 09:28)
- Chapter 5: Preparation and Understanding Your Audience (09:28 – 12:18)
- Chapter 6: Pre-suasion and Setting Up the Right Environment (12:18 – 14:33)
- Chapter 7: Crafting the Presentation Message (14:33 – 16:45)
- Chapter 8: Making the Audience the Hero (16:45 – 19:04)
- Chapter 9: Confidence and the Catalyst Role of CX Leaders (19:04 – 23:48)
- Chapter 10: Hierarchy of Engagement for Persuasion (23:48 – 25:31)
- Chapter 11: Take Home Value (25:31 – 26:49)
- Chapter 12: Closing Remarks and Contact Information (26:49 – 29:37)
Highlights
The Ingredients for Persuasion
Megan: “the most effective persuasion is one that combines a combination of data, stories, and also making sure that people see you as a credible authority because part of how persuasive a message is comes from the person, the, you know, the messenger and people’s assessment of what that messenger’s motives are. You know what they’re saying. So we have to really think about not only what data and stories are we sharing, but how are those elements going to be received based on what the audience thinks about who we are and what we care about. So it’s really a combination of those three things.”
Prioritization: Buckets of Rock and Sand
Pat: “…I describe it as thinking of your presentation as a bucket and only so much can fit in that bucket. And generally there are going to be a few, what I call boulders that have to fit in that bucket. So it can’t be ten boulders. It’s got to be 2 or 3. And then you’re going to have some other messages, which would be the rocks that kind of go in around it. And maybe you’re going to try to work in some special effects that could be the sand or whatever or the gems that go into it. But the idea is you have to limit the the, you know, what you’re going to present, because it can become overwhelming if you try to cover too much and instead really focus on what is the what are the big takeaways that they need to get out of this.”
Transcript
Troy:00:00:01
All CX professionals have to do it. We have to convince others of the value of customer experience. But sometimes throwing tons of data at stakeholders isn’t enough.
Megan:00:00:11
The most effective persuasion is one that combines a combination of data, stories, and also making sure that people see you as a credible authority, because part of how persuasive a message is comes from the messenger.
Troy:00:00:31
The CX conundrum of persuading others to adopt the customer centric mentality. On this episode of The CX Leader Podcast.
Announcer:00:00:47
The CX Leader Podcast is produced by Walker, an experience management firm that helps our clients accelerate their XM success. You can find out more at walkerinfo.com
Troy:00:00:59
Hello everyone, I’m Troy Powell, host of this episode of The CX Leader Podcast, and thank you for listening. It’s a great time to be a CX leader, and we explore topics and themes to help leaders like you develop great programs and deliver amazing experiences for your customers. It’s not easy changing people’s minds, but we’re approaching a season in which customer experience professionals are working hard to convince executives and peers on the value of adopting a customer centric mindset. We as CX pros know the value of our efforts, but sometimes we have to convince others of its advantages, and sometimes data isn’t enough. We have to balance the data with storytelling to build confidence in others about the value of customer experience. It’s definitely a challenge for CX leaders, one we’re exploring in this episode as part of our CX Conundrums series, and I think we have some excellent expertise to help us out. Megan Burns is a customer experience expert, author, keynote speaker, and no stranger to this show. We also have our very own Pat Gibbons, who you know well as a host of this podcast, but who’s sitting on the other side of the desk for this episode as a guest expert. Megan, pat, welcome back to The CX Leader Podcast.
Megan:00:02:14
Thank you
Pat:00:02:15
Thanks, Troy
Troy:00:02:16
So, you know, we hear a lot as CX leaders. You know, this idea of having to present information to executives, to stakeholders of all types, really to get them to understand the importance of what customers are telling us, the importance of needing to change what they’re doing. And a lot of times, you know, we’ve heard, we come at it with a lot of data, we have no shortage of data, and a lot of us love talking about data. So often, you know, putting data in is important. You know, we need to see facts, but sometimes we can overdo it. And so a lot of discussion over the last few years, maybe even decades on the value of weaving stories into it and appealing to kind of a little more of the emotions and getting, all right, what does this really mean? So tell us a little bit in your experience and your views. What is this idea of data and storytelling? Both of them. What purpose do they serve and how do you maybe think about balancing those two in our industry.
Megan:00:03:23
Sure. So I guess I’ll start. I actually did research on this probably about 10 or 12 years ago now. And the good thing is that human brains haven’t changed in 10,000 years, so that research is still just as valid. Um, and the most effective persuasion is one that combines a combination of data, stories, and also, um, making sure that people see you as a credible authority because part of how persuasive a message is comes from the person, the, you know, the messenger and people’s assessment of, uh, what that messenger’s motives are. You know what they’re saying. So we have to really think about not only what data and stories are we sharing. Um, but how are those elements going to be received based on what the audience thinks about who we are and and what we care about? So it’s really a combination of those three things. Um, there’s one other one that I don’t think gets enough attention, which is identity. People will go to great lengths to make themselves look like the kind of person they think they are. So trying to persuade someone, you should do this because of this data. And oh, by the way, this person’s life will be better is great. But I had a client once say, um, he was presenting to his executive team, and he said, if we were really a customer centric company, would we? And then he showed six things that were so obviously not customer centric. It the executives didn’t even know that these things were happening, and that you believe yourself to be a customer centric person or customer centric company, and we are not acting in accordance with that. That creates a cognitive dissonance, a mental discomfort that people will go to great lengths to, to try to resolve. So it’s really using multiple ingredients in the recipe, if you will. And data and stories are part of that.
Troy:00:05:39
Yeah, interesting. Pat?
Pat:00:05:40
Yeah. Yeah. I would add, um, obviously it is a combination. You know, there’s an interesting quote that I’ll share. This is from Seth Godin, who is kind of a master communicator, and he says “the problem is this: no spreadsheet, no bibliography, no list of resources is sufficient proof to someone who chooses not to believe. The skeptic will always find a reason, even if it’s one the rest of us don’t think is a good one. Relying too much on proof distracts from the real mission and emotional connection.” So clearly, data, people need data to be able to kind of have some of that proof, but it also has to have the context around it to be able to say, yeah, this is these are the reasons behind making a change and, you know, the persuasion involved. So, um, you know, I think this topic is so relevant for CX professionals because we can easily get caught up in the process and get caught up in the data. And Troy, as you’ve identified, we love the data. We want to we want to share it all every bit. And and that should convince people. But it is really how you kind of weave it together and how you, um, really make it evident that a change needs to occur.
Megan:00:06:58
Yeah, I’ll just add on one thing there. I love that quote from Seth Godin that I hadn’t heard that one before. The I think there’s one other thing. People don’t necessarily actually want data, because we’ve all been in situations where we’ve given people data and they’ve still not acted. Um, what they want is confidence. And so data may give them confidence. It may not depending on what the data is and whether or not they believe it. So thinking about, you know, what are they… what do they need confidence in. Do they need to feel confident that the thing we’re telling them is a problem is really a problem? Do they need to feel confident that the strategy that we’re proposing is one that’s actually going to be effective? Right. What is the thing they’re afraid of, and how will this help them be less afraid of making that move.
Troy:00:07:51
Yeah. And this, you know, I like where this conversation is going because it’s, you know sometimes when we talk about this, you know what? What do you need to have in a presentation to, you know, convince the executives or make them think, yes, you know what you’re talking about. We’re going to give you whatever you want and and think that it is just a, you know, oh, well, I didn’t include enough stories or the right type of story or included too much data or not enough data. And we’ve all been in these presentations at the end, you know, we didn’t get where we wanted to go with it. And we’re like, oh, maybe I should have, you know, used a bar chart instead of a line chart, you know, or think of something as simple as that. And it and it isn’t. And I think what both of you are bringing in are these, these additional kind of factors that matter because, you know, to the point and, Megan, you’ve used this word already that this is about persuasion, not just about communication of ideas. And I think the one piece that’s been really interesting, both of your responses was this piece of, you know, a lot of times people come in believing something to be true. And no matter what evidence you give them, a lot of times they’re going to struggle to change their mind on it. So talk a little bit about that. And you both hit on pieces of this. But I’d love for some, you know, expounding perhaps on, you know, what are ways, how can we think differently about this, you know, piece of, of persuasion versus just thinking of kind of a one time how do we build our deck.
Pat:00:09:28
You know, I…
Megan:00:09:29
Patty, you want to go first?
Pat:00:09:30
Yeah, I’ll throw out a beginning piece. And that might be a good place for you to jump off of. I think some of it even starts before you are, you know, going into the presentation and how you prepare. And it’s intentional thinking about that exact topic. How do you want things to change in the way people think and the way people are going to act And I do think some of it is okay. Let me think about this audience or who I’m presenting to. What do I feel is the way they currently think about this topic? And what am I presenting that is going to change the way they think? And how do they currently act about this? And what are the ways that I’m going to suggest that they change the way they act. So some of it is just how you even enter into that, as a first step.
Megan:00:10:29
Yeah. Pat, you’re 100% right that the belief that the persuasion happens in the meeting is completely false. Like the meeting is the exclamation point on the end of the sentence. But a lot has to have happened before that. And you’re absolutely right to that. And we don’t necessarily think about this when we’re trying to change someone’s beliefs there’s actually two phases to it. One is called disconfirmation, which is convincing them that the world is not the way they thought it was. And that’s really scary for people to admit. So you have to be very thoughtful and conscious about how you do that, and then convincing them that the world actually is the way you think it is. And the disconfirmation process can take a while. Um, getting people used to the idea that, you know, things have changed or that things aren’t the way they thought they were. So I think spending a little more time thinking about how can I make that case and how can I do it in a way that is sensitive to their ego, quite frankly? You know, I could walk in and tell an executive, you don’t actually know your customer’s. Not going to win me a lot of friends. So coming in and saying, you know, you know a lot about your customers. But the thing about customers is they’re complicated. And there are these other things over here that you might not know that change the picture a little bit, right? So enabling them to save face about the fact that their previous beliefs were wrong. Um, that’s something that I think can be a really powerful piece that surrounds the data.
Pat:00:12:18
Yeah, I think a key part of that is actually validating, like to be able to say we generally think of this topic in this way. And you know what? That makes a whole lot of sense then to be able to introduce some new information that allows them to say, oh, okay, maybe it is different and help them to draw their own conclusion through that process. But I really think that validation is a key element because as you suggest, it protects their ego.
Troy:00:12:50
And that, you know, thinking back, Megan, to your idea of, you know this appeal to identity in a way. You know, sometimes that piece of, yes, you do care about customers. You know, I think sometimes we come in like, oh, like you say, you care about customers, but you don’t, you know. Well, no, you do care about customers. And you try and you try in whatever ways you can to do that. Now here’s a slight, you know, flip on that or here’s a different way of thinking about it. Here’s something that maybe was a blind spot, but but to your point, you know this. I remember doing some trainings on various presentation techniques, but this idea of the pre-wire, right. Like, like how are you getting your message out in various ways in advance of that? So I love the way you think that the exclamation point at the end of the sentence is the presentation. It’s not the whole sentence.
Megan:00:13:44
You know, Troy, you just reminded me of anybody who knows me. Knows I’m a huge book nerd. Um, a book… so there’s a book called influence by Robert Cialdini Downey that is famous. There’s another book that came out quite a few years after that called Pre-suasion, that was actually all about how you create an environment in which it is easier to persuade people. I forgot about that book, honestly, until just about 30s ago, but, um, it’s a great one if you haven’t read it to read, and I should probably go pull it back off my shelf and dust it out. But it’s really powerful how, um, things you do ahead of time can increase the likelihood that in that meeting, um, you will actually get the result you want.
Troy:00:14:33
Mhm. Yeah. I’ll have to look that up too.
Troy:00:14:46
You know Pat you’ve done a number of kind of trainings in the past, you know for us and clients on this sort of building out, you know the the presentation and thinking of it broader than just what it looks like or what exactly it contains, but really, like, you know, zeroing in on this idea of what what are the message, what are the things you really want to get across versus like, everything? And who is the audience and what they want to know? Um, talk a little bit about that process and how people can kind of get started with the planning of these messages.
Pat:00:15:23
Yeah. You know, I’ve kind of focused on some tools. We actually have a, a workbook and we’ll, we’ll link it on the, on the site so people can download it. It’s very simple. It’s not a lecture or anything, but it’s just some tools you can use. And I’ll just highlight a few of them. You know, one of them is, as you suggest, understanding the audience. And I think sometimes we think of that as well. Are they executives or newbies or whatever. And that’s, that’s, that’s effective. But even some of the dynamics involved, things like, okay, is this the type of training that they’ve been invited to come or is it mandated? Do they want to be there or not? Okay. That alone will affect how you approach the presentation. Is this a group that you’ve never met? You don’t know anything about? Or you know these people really well. Again, you know, there are a number of factors. And I think we highlight about eight of them that are different than normal demographics. That would help you understand how to position your message. The other one that comes to mind that I think is is generally pretty powerful is a simple concept, but very hard, I think, for CX professionals to follow.
Pat:00:16:45
And that is prioritization. Okay. And we generally I describe it as thinking of your presentation as a bucket and only so much can fit in that bucket. And generally there are going to be a few, what I call boulders that have to fit in that bucket. So it can’t be ten boulders. It’s got to be 2 or 3. And then you’re going to have some other messages, which would be the rocks that kind of go in around it. And maybe you’re going to try to work in some special effects that could be the sand or whatever or the gems that go into it. But the idea is you have to limit the the, you know, what you’re going to present, because it can become overwhelming if you try to cover too much and instead really focus on what is the what are the big takeaways that they that they need to get out of this? And really, what do I want them to do with this? Otherwise, you know, people will walk away, maybe enlightened, but maybe not taking action.
Megan:00:17:48
I love those, Pat. And I’ll add one more thing onto that. You know, having that list of what are the top three things I want them to remember? Um, is a critical part. Um, if you take it one step further, what do I want them to tell other people. When you come out of this… I actually got this, um, from a book that was written by a screenwriter, and he’s like the, you know, whether or not you get a TV show or a movie produced is in part about whether or not you can write something that people are so excited about that they tell others about. You know, it’s a show about nothing. Seinfeld. Um, and that really changed my mindset to thinking about not just what do I want them to remember, but what do I want them to say? And how do I set them up to make it really easy for them to tell other people what my three points were? It inherently makes them more memorable. And you give, you know, you kind of put fuel under the fire that you’re trying to create. So what are not only what are my top three points? Um, But what would I want someone to say to sum up the gist of my presentation in 90s or two minutes when they go to their next meeting?
Pat:00:19:04
Yeah, it’s the other version that I’ve run through my head is okay. If I could be a fly on the wall after the presentation, somebody leaves and somebody says, hey, how was that presentation you went to? What was it about? And if they go, ah, I don’t know. They just threw a bunch of data at me or they’re there, you know, you want to think through what, what would they say that I would then I would say I nailed it. Or, you know, and again, it’s not about me. That’s a whole nother thing. It’s as a presenter. You got to let go of that. You’re trying to make them the heroes here, that they they get the information and take it somewhere. But, you know, it’s a kind of a healthy exercise to think, you know what would help me know that, okay, they they got the message that I wanted them to hear or they didn’t.
Troy:00:20:00
Yeah, which you know. So this, I think, makes a great segue into one thing you’ve mentioned already, Megan. But then another thing that you talk about that I want to get into one is the confidence piece, right? And in a way, this is part of like enabling them to have confidence in a new perspective, especially if you’ve taken this approach, you know, this disconfirmation of what they have been confident in. Well, then you need to build them back up to be confident in what you want them. And that confidence one of the ways you see it is that they’re willing to tell others you know about it, or they’re confident enough to say, this is what it was about. And I think that gets perfectly into something I’ve heard you talk about, you know, more recently is this idea that CX leaders and professionals need to be Catalysts. Not, what is it, not Crusaders. Right. So catalyst. Not crusaders. And so, sense of it is about like enabling this change that others carry out. But you. Help to catalyst. So tell us a little more about that and how this all kind of. Factors into that.
Megan:00:21:11
Yeah. So passion is a double edged sword. And one of the things I love about CX people is that our community tends to be extremely passionate about what we do, but that passion very often comes off as being cheerleaders, being Pollyanna, being crusaders, and not really having the gravitas or the business connection. And people think, you know, oh, it’s more about doing the right thing by people, but I’ve got to worry about profitability. Um, and this is where, you know, throwing more data. The most successful leaders do not, um, try to convince people that what they want to have done is a good thing. They do some of that, but what they’re actually doing is behind the scenes. They’re moving things in such a way that people are going to naturally do what you already want them to do. So a catalyst in chemistry is something you add to a solution, and it speeds up the reaction. And it doesn’t actually do that by adding energy. It doesn’t, you know, cheer louder. It does that by moving molecules around so that more of the right things that need to come together, come together faster. And I think that’s really a great way to think about it.
Megan:00:22:29
So you can, for example, one great catalyst technique is actually asking questions. When you ask a question that somebody doesn’t know the answer to or maybe has never even thought to ask, they go get it for you. That opens an idea that they’re like, oh wait, I never even thought to ask that. And then they’re off and running to the races. Now you probably already knew the answer to that question ahead of time, but by asking that question of them and getting them to ask that question, you were triggering a natural curiosity and a natural concern without for one second having to look like you were trying to convince them to do something. Because the more… Humans are funny, the more someone tries to get us to do something, the less we want to do it. Um, instinctively. And this is even really cooperative people. This isn’t just stubborn people because we like to feel like we’re in control. Um, so just finding ways to convey information that, um, doesn’t seem like you’re telling that you’re asking. Um, it sparks action more than sharing data and kind of hoping that they’ll have an aha moment.
Pat:00:23:48
Yeah. I think, um, you know, it’s there’s kind of an old adage, too. To you can’t make somebody believe something, you know. And, you know, we even have a framework, uh, we typically call it the hierarchy of engagement. It’s taking a, you know, a maslow approach to it, but it communication really starts with awareness and then moves to understanding, helping people really understand what the issues are to belief, where they believe in it. And it’s really only through that process that you can really assume that they’re going to take action on it.
Megan:00:24:27
Yeah. I think there’s another thing, too, Pat, that, um, what you said triggered in my mind. Um, I think a lot of professionals, a lot of business people in general think that what we’re trying to persuade people is that the thing we’re talking about is a good idea. Not true. Everything that comes through the door and gets to an audience is a good idea. What we’re trying to persuade people. It is that this is the best idea right now, or that this is something that has to be done right now. So we are often very successful in getting people to believe that something is a problem. We are less successful in getting them to believe that it’s a problem that is worth solving and worth solving right now. Um, so your comment about hierarchy, I think there’s also a hierarchy of, of action, um, that we don’t necessarily think about the fact that executives get lots of good ideas all the time, and that’s not what it’s about.
Troy:00:25:31
Okay, well then to wrap up at the end of every episode, as both of you are very aware, we asked for a little piece of take home value for the audience. So what’s something that pretty much anyone in CX could take, you know, and in other industries too, but could take tomorrow and put in place to help them get a little bit better at this kind of art of persuasion, for lack of a better word. So, Megan, why don’t you kick us off with what’s your take home value would be?
Megan:00:26:03
Yeah, I have this this set of three little questions that I ask myself and that I ask clients, quite frankly, when I’m when I’m planning a speech: what do you want them to know at the end that they didn’t know before? What do you want them to believe at the end that they didn’t believe before? And what do you want them to do at the end that they didn’t do before? And just answer it. And again, this is where it comes back to what Pat said. Prioritization. Because you may have 47 things on that list. You’ve got to cut it back. But that helps you understand okay, I need to give them this other knowledge. I need to convince them of this. It just helps put some structure around what you’re actually trying to impart. And it’s a fairly easy little mnemonic to remember.
Troy:00:26:49
Good Excellent. Pat?
Pat:00:26:52
Yeah, I’ll go back to something I mentioned earlier, and I guess I’ll put it in the in the kind of context of just preparing, you know, before you ever get started. First step is check yourself. If you find yourself saying, this is all about me delivering a great presentation, you are not in the right place. You know this is about the audience. The audience is the hero here. You are the catalyst as as Megan has rightly said. So kind of check your own mental attitude and then really try to profile your audience in a way that maybe you haven’t before. You know, do they want to be there? Are they going to be receptive to this? Is this something they’re eager to learn about? Are they strangers to you? How diverse is this group? Are they people from a bunch of different departments that you’re talking to, or are they all from one group and they’ve all got, you know, the same set of actions that you’re going to ask of them? And, you know, I really think that when you do that, it gives you a lot of guidance. And you pair that with with Megan’s take home value. I think you’ve got elements right there that can take you a long way.
Troy:00:28:04
Yes, absolutely. Well, thank you both. This just personally has been incredibly valuable and useful to hear these tidbits and these ideas and great reminders of things I’ve heard, but also new things that can help, you know, as I’m presenting this kind of information out there. And so I’m assuming there’s a few other people in the audience who are equally equal amount of value in this. So thank you very much. Megan Burns is a customer experience expert, author and keynote speaker, and Pat Gibbons is an SVP here at Walker. Megan, Pat, thanks for being on the show.
Megan:00:28:41
My pleasure
Pat:00:28:42
Yeah. Glad to do it. I hope it was helpful
Troy:00:28:43
And so if people found value in this, which I am sure they did what are some ways they could continue the conversation or get more information about things you talked about? Megan, how would they be able to kind of continue the conversation with you and find more?
Megan:00:28:59
LinkedIn is probably the best way you can just search for my name. It’s Megan Burns, no extra H’s or E’s or anything like that. And then my website is just my name meghan-burns.com. Um, either of those places is fine, but LinkedIn is probably where there’s the most information and sort of active conversation about this.
Troy:00:29:23
Yeah, and I would encourage people to do that. There’s continual interesting and useful information and conversations going on around things megan’s doing. And Pat?
Pat:00:29:33
Yeah, absolutely. LinkedIn. Same with me. LinkedIn is the best way to find me
Troy:00:29:37
All right. Perfect. Well, thank you all again. And if you want to discuss this topic further or have great ideas about future episodes, you can also email us at podcast@walkerinfo.com. We’d love to hear from you! Be sure to rate The CX Leader Podcast through your podcast service and leave a review. Your feedback will help us improve the show and deliver the best possible value to you, our listener. You can also check out our website cxleaderpodcast.com. And from there you can follow the show, find previous episodes a link to our blog which we update regularly, and extra content about our episodes. The CX Leader Podcast is a production of Walker. We’re an experience management firm that helps companies accelerate their XM success. You can read more about us at walkerinfo.com. Thank you for listening and remember, it’s a great time to be a CX leader. We’ll see you next time.
Tags: Pat Gibbons Troy Powell Megan Burns storytelling CX Conundrums persuasion changing minds data